Please note: this transcript is not 100% accurate.
Dr. Ukti Vora 0:00
Every time I was stuck, I would reach out to some people who have been kind enough to guide me through this journey, and they’re like, Yeah, this is what you do. Like, this is like, even that comfort that you’ll get there, or that’s fine try this. Like, those were things that really helped me find my space.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 0:21
This is Dr. Meenal, and welcome to Uncover Your Eyes, where we uncover reality. As a mom and eye doctor, I want to know it all. Being a healthcare provider and having been home more with my children the last eight years has been difficult coming back into the profession, being more active, I have felt unseen, unheard and discounted on so many levels, and I’m sure many other female healthcare providers can probably relate to this. So today’s episode, I am very excited to have on a fellow podcaster, D.r Ukti Vora, who is an optometrist with an MBA, and she is the Product Markeitng Manager at Topcon Healthcare, who specializes in software solutions for North America, and she is the podcast host of Nerdy Optometrist, and We are bringing today’s episode together to you. So, yeah, I’m so excited like to do this with you today, Ukti
Dr. Ukti Vora 1:26
Thank you so much for this idea and opportunity. I think this is super fun, and this is also, like my first experience, I would say, collaborating in this fashion. So I’m so glad we’re doing this together.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 1:37
Me too. Thank you.
Dr. Ukti Vora 1:39
I know this is your this was your idea, but I’m going to start with my first question that I have for you, because, like, you know, we have known that there is a discrepancy about, like, the male and female ratio within our industry, and I think it would be nice to understand from your perspective. Being a female practitioner out there. How do you feel about healthcare being dominated by male practitioners versus female I know optometry is slightly different, but in general, when we talk about,
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 2:11
yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think yes, we’re definitely there’s a shift. You know, there’s always been that gap, and that gap is slowly closing. You know, there was a trend in the US in 2022 that showed that 37% of physicians that were practicing are female. Now, which is good in general healthcare, you know, whether you’re looking at massage therapists, you’re looking at optometrists, nurses, all professions, we definitely see more females in healthcare, but in terms of physicians and doctors, we see more men than women. In terms of healthcare positions like administrative roles, as you go higher and higher up, you will see more men in those positions than women. So they’re assuming higher healthcare position, administrative roles than women. But also you will see in certain surgical specialties, or certain specialties like radiology, more men are still there. But you know, I think the most important part of this is as we get into medical schools and start seeing, we are seeing that gap closing. And you know, so the future of healthcare will be more equal, I think, in terms of men and women, but also even yourself, you know, and me, we see even in optometry, back in the day, there was not a lot of female educators, and now we’re seeing in healthcare, you know, female educators, speakers, podcasters, like everything, and we are really working to close that gap. So, yeah, it might be more health care domination with men right now, but we are effectively closing that gap. I think your struggle was a little bit different, though, right? You had come from India, and you know, you were an optometrist, you’d come from India, and you know, I know you did your MBA here, and you broke barriers. So tell me about that struggle as a female right like you. Broke a lot of barriers, getting your MBA and all of that in as an optometrist. So how did that pan out?
Dr. Ukti Vora 4:11
I think I was blessed with meeting right people at the right time. Of course, the struggle was real. I was at a point where I felt like, Oh god, I’m good for nothing. Because basically, when you know, when you do, when you’re practicing in India as an optometrist, you come to us and you have to restart your career. It’s not that you can, you know, translate your degree and you can start practicing, or you can just give an exam and you’re done. It’s like you go back to school and do all the thing again. So it’s little heartbreaking at times, like, I wish I could translate some of my credits and start it where I left. That wasn’t the case. So yes, definitely the struggle was really, initially, to try and find out where you fit in in this new culture, not just like career wise, but even culturally. It’s very different when it comes to being in a new country. Okay, specifically after getting married, right? So you’re like, trying to kind of find your space in all all the aspects. But I think the good thing about this whole experience was I explored areas which I would have otherwise not done. So I feel if I would have been practicing od here or being an optometrist, it would have been great, but I would have never done MBA. I would have never thought of the business aspect of it, and something that I really enjoy and love, I always did manage some part of, like business back in India, with the practices that I worked with, but I never thought that could be the center of my career. And I feel that’s interesting, that these changes, or the shift where you’re uncomfortable, you’re challenged, and then you’re like, Okay, let me find what’s the best opportunity for me, what I enjoy. And I did meet and talk to lot of people within the industry who really helped me navigate through this unknown spaces. I would say so doing MBA was with something okay. I think I’m good with this. Let me give it a shot while I wait to figure things out. And glad I did, because that introduced me to so many different things of business that basically where I am today is because of my MBA degree and the fact it is different, but it’s always new. Otherwise you’re always comfortable, and you would have probably been there. So that has been like my journey of trying to find my space and whatever is available. I was kind of looking at different opportunities, and people were really kind enough to guide me when I had, like, no idea what I was working on.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 6:30
Yeah, I love that, like, because you really broke barriers, right as a female. I mean, most of us, after getting married to, you know, kind of break down coming here. We can’t, you kind of lose your degree and all of that you can’t get, you know, reinstated here, and it’s just really sad, and you broke barriers by overcoming that and becoming one of the, you know, most well respected people in our profession. And, you know, we that’s such an inspiration. So I’m really happy for that, and
Dr. Ukti Vora 6:58
I have to give a huge shout out to several just because, like, I’m also a huge female advocate here, there were several female optometrists who I reached out to, and they helped me navigate this space so much that I like every time I would kind of get stuck, also, I’m more comfortable, like, I’m sure you would to be as well. Like you’re more comfortable sharing the challenges with other female practitioner like, you know, because you can relate to things. So every time I was stuck, I would reach out to some people who have been kind enough to guide me through this journey, and they’re like, Yeah, this is what you do. Like, this is like, even that comfort that you’ll get there, or that’s fine try this. Like, those were things that really helped me find my space and try to do something different, other than probably, like practicing od would have been great, but this is something that I truly enjoy, and that’s also the beauty of optometry or the eyecare industry, where you can do so much. You can be a practicing OD, you can be on social media, you can be in industry. So it allows you to shift easily, as well as it’s like fun that you can do it all, yeah,
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 8:01
but that that’s the shift, like, that’s the mindset shift. Exactly what you said is Women Empowering women, right? We didn’t have that back in the day, right? Like, I feel turned back 10 years, there was no female colleagues helping me, you know, um, but now I feel, you know, women are more at the forefront and supportive of each other, and that’s what we needed, because the rest of the world didn’t understand. So it was, you know, I love to hear that, because that that is a positive shift in all, in all.
Dr. Ukti Vora 8:34
So you can you tell me about your struggles, because, like, you know, talking about struggles in the shift, I know most of our struggles that I’ve realized are very similar, but I think it’s hard to kind of highlight and talk about your struggles. So how did you like, what were your moving parts in? Like, moving in healthcare and finding your space, being women in the healthcare industry.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 8:56
I think for me, you know my struggle, my main struggle was, and I don’t know if it was, you know, race, gender, appearance, like it could be anything, the way I walked, like I don’t know what it was, but I did always feel like discounted or unheard. And I will always equate it to being female, let alone South Asian, but I think female was a big thing, you know, that I probably will have a family, or I have a family, or I’m probably at home more have to pick up my kids, or, like, whatever the situation is. I think we are assumed to not be worthy, even if we have the abilities to be, you know, amazing or the best person for the job. You know, I was turned down in so many healthcare roles, even more administrative roles as an optometrist, purely because of those reasons. I feel even if I was a better suited candidate, and I think I started devaluing myself, and that was a big struggle that I faced was I started feeling I’m not worthy, because there. Telling me I’m not worthy by that right and to overcome that and believe in yourself. And that was the biggest struggle I faced. And, you know, recently it was, it was funny, because it’s still happening nowadays. A company had reached out to me for a for a position, like a temporary project, basically, and and said to me, you know, we want you to do this project. And I said, Yeah, you know, of course. And I asked about the compensation, and they said, well, we don’t compensate for it. We’ve never been asked that before. And I, for a fact, know that there are people who are compensated for it. And so I don’t know why this came out of my mouth, but I said, if I was male, would you have asked me that? And they did not have a response, and they basically said, we’ll, we’ll get back to you, and we’ll think about, I never heard from them again, but you know, I think the struggles I faced now, I feel we need to ask these questions, and if we are going to accept not being paid like our counterparts and not doing things, then what’s gonna happen to us, right? So we need to raise our voices, and if it means we’re not gonna get that job or that project because we’re not paid, that’s good, the industry will start seeing and start changing in order to pay us females for the same job that men are doing. And I think, you know, it is our time and energy, right? So I think those are the struggles I faced, and I feel I’m overcoming it with believing in myself and my abilities more and more. But it took me a long time, right? So that would didn’t happen overnight. It took me, you know, many, many years. And now look at us, we’re podcasting, right? So, I mean, what’s amazing? How did you get into podcasting?
Dr. Ukti Vora 11:39
Curious, so that’s again, the story that goes back to the fact that when I moved to United States, I was trying to be like, give something back to the country where I came from, which gave me my identity, my career. And I was feeling a little bit of, I wouldn’t say guilt, but I was feeling like, oh, you know, I’ve learned everything I did everything there, and now I’ve moved away, and I want to contribute back some to Indian optometry, who who brought me where I am, and that’s where I was introduced with the concept of podcasting, by another female podcaster. So Dr Maria simpalas, who probably everybody knows within the industry, introduced me to podcasting, and she had questions about, like, Optometry in India, and are like, oh, there’s so much. There’s only so much known about Optometry in India. And optometrists from India are settled like it across the globe, and they are doing phenomenal job. And I thought that is a great story for me to kind of bring it and share people who are probably navigating their spaces and trying to go through the same struggles, like, how I did right like, I moved to us, and I was lucky enough to find right people. Maybe everybody doesn’t get that. So that’s all the idea of, like, being introduced to the world of podcasting. I had absolutely no idea how to do it, what to do it, like, where to even start. I was like, lost. But luckily, I’m married to an engineer who helped me figure things out. So married to an engineer, and he like, Yeah, let’s do it. If you want to try it, like, just go for it. I wasn’t sure I would survive almost five years now I was. I just did it as a fun project and see, like, where did copers? But I’m enjoying every bit of it so it that’s how the podcasting started. It started off by talking about journeys of people moving from India and settling abroad, and identifying their journeys which are not Googled easily. Like, I don’t want to talk about things that you can Google of, like, what is the application process? I wanted to talk about, like, what were your challenges in the Applications process? What are the scholarships? How did you get through that? How did you choose a different career path, and why did you choose, say, UK versus us, like, you know, questions like those. And that’s, that was very interesting, and that’s, that’s how it all started, and it’s still here.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 13:56
Yeah, I love that. Congratulations. I didn’t realize it’s been so long, because, you know, I just,
Dr. Ukti Vora 14:03
but tell me, why did you start podcasting like, you know, it’s, it’s a great question for you as well. Yeah,
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 14:09
I think, well, I love talking, as you can see. So talking has always been my thing since I was young, and I think it was a struggle I faced. I wanted to speak about so many topics. I mean, I think the first one I wanted to bring to the forefront was mental health in our in our industry, because I feel optometry specifically, but you know, a lot of healthcare professionals, we don’t talk about mental health. It’s almost taboo or a stigma, like, you should just be fine. You’re an optometrist, you know, you have your own lifestyle, you should just be fine. So mental health was a big topic that I had, you know, pitched to many companies to bring to the forefront, especially in optometry, and a lot of them shied away from that topic. That was actually my trigger to start podcasting. I wanted to bring to the forefront topics that are un talked about, unseen, unheard of us, that. We’re all facing. But I also wanted to bring healthcare together, right? My podcast is more for all healthcare professionals bring light on issues that we systemic, issues eye care, issues that we all face and that we all discuss, right? For example, as an optometrist, there are patients that come to us and talk about, you know, they’re arthritis, right? Um, we’re not rheumatologists, but these are topics that we should be informed about. And know, know, the basics in health care. So that was kind of my I wanted to have collaborative health care, and this was kind of my only platform to talk as much as I wanted about everything I wanted to talk about. So, you know, I just started, as you know, a couple months ago, and you know, I’m grateful for it. I don’t have an engineer husband, so had to figure it all out. Like, literally, from Googling, which microphone should you buy, right? Ended up with this one. But, you know, I had to Google everything. I had no idea. I had never heard a podcast, actually. So I’m not someone that I don’t want to say this out loud, but I’m not someone who reads books. I don’t listen I watch TV, but I had never heard a podcast. I like music, so you know, in the car, listening to music, and for me to have never heard a podcast, but say confidently, I’m starting my own podcast, which was huge, you know, it involves technology, you know, I mean, I didn’t know anything, like even what platform to start on. Like, I had no idea. So I know you are the I know you said your husband, but you are the technology guru, I want to say, especially in our field. So, you know, like you always say that the present and the future is technology, right? So tell me about that in healthcare, you know, in optometry, why is that the case? And is that true?
Dr. Ukti Vora 16:54
Oh, absolutely. And, yeah, I’m glad that I can, I can kind of represent myself, that I’m a technology guru. I wish my husband believed in that, but having said that, yes, I completely do all my editing and posting and everything, so he helped me with the setup, but I kind of learned it on the go as well. Talking about technology, I feel it’s such an integral part of our life every day, whether it is healthcare, non healthcare, like, I don’t think so we can survive without technology even, like, right now, right we’re miles apart, but we can do so much using a technology. I would say again, this was an another beautiful accident. I would say, while during I was, during my early days, while I was struggling to find my space in this country, I was introduced with this concept of telehealth. And I thought that this really does not exist. Like, how can you remotely examine anyone? Or, how can that remote eye care work? And I thought it was all fake. It’s just good experiment. I thought it is an experiment. I didn’t even knew that that was a real thing. And this was pre covid. It was in 2019, so I met with the company, and they’re like, Yeah, we’re doing telehealth, we need an operational clinical manager to manage things, and I like, I’ll do a three month project. I’ll see where this goes. Otherwise, I’ll see you probably never. That’s how I got introduced to the world of telehealth, or like technology in ICARE. And I was amazed with the level of technology that is out there, but it definitely was not adopted back then, pre covid. I was any meeting that I would go to, they’re like, let’s not talk about telehealth, like you’re doing something I don’t know, like I was doing something illegal. And I’m like, No, this is a legit company that were in office. It just had a digital component of it. And everybody was like, shying away from that topic altogether, covid hits, and then suddenly it’s like everybody’s talking about telehealth. And I’m like, these guys didn’t talk about it like yesterday when I met them, and everybody has become like a tech guru, but it helped me a lot. I would say that because I had a head start, not knowing what I was getting into, but I just felt it was very interesting to see what technology can do. Just a fun fact, I actually was in India while I was seeing patients in New York. So because I was supporting some clinical staff, and they’re like, can you help us? I’m like, Sure. And I was on a vacation back home in India, but I could see patients from there. And I’m like, This is amazing. Like, this is what is the future? And covid really helped in in a positive way, to bring in technology within the industry. And now I’m glad it also pushed all the big players to invest in technology, because I felt like we are, like, decades behind in terms of technology where we should be, compared to other healthcare stream, like, if we talk about, say, radiology, for example, as you’ve mentioned, like they are far ahead of us in terms of adopting technology. Even dentistry, they have, like, cool technologies out there. We are getting in. And I feel there is no better time to kind of adopt technology. Uh, then doing it right now. And there are so many things out there, not just in the telehealth space, but even, like, AI, or you talk about, you know, even in, like, managing your data and getting information from data. So there’s so much that we probably didn’t know we can do with technology. So yeah, that’s how I kind of bumped into optometry and telehealth. I trust me, I just thought it’s going to be a three months project. Five years later, I’m going to be here for another 10 I know that. Like, I love that’s so funny. Well, tell me about you. Did you have any experience with telehealth or like, do you promote you do? Do you practice telehealth in your in your practice?
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 20:44
You know what? I think I’m exactly what you said. You know, pre covid, it was like, I’m doing something illegal. Um, I would never do this. And then covid forced us to do that, right? Um, I don’t think I have all the technology to do. You know telehealth perfectly? You’ve motivated, motivated me to do that. But, you know, during covid, we had to use a lot of telehealth options to take care of our patients, especially those with emergencies, because we were shut down for a few months. But you were right, like, it’s a mindset shift, and I think over the last, you know, month or two, and talking to you before it was I think it’s something that we just need to see and shift towards. Because right now, when we don’t know about the technology, we almost feel like we’re doing something illegal, because we’re not touching the patient, we’re not in contact with the patient, we’re not suing the patient, you know, face to face. But if you look at it, a lot of our tests like you’re saying radiologists, even right or or certain professions, like a lot of it is online scans, online pictures, online tests, right? So I can see that happening and being the future of a lot of you know, I care, health care, period. So it’s just a mindset shift that I need, that needs to settle with me and others, I think. But I’m very excited for it, because the fact that I can go on vacation or not vacation, sit at home and see my patients in my pajamas would be great. You know, it’s, I think it’s I think it’s exciting, and it gives us that, as healthcare providers, that leeway to have a better lifestyle, and for our patients, it gives them better accessibility, right? They can access us easier and in off times as well. So I think, you know, that’s, that’s great, but there’s, there’s a whole other piece to technology. I want to say, again, I’m not the expert in technology. You are, but the AI piece. So tell me, like, about AI and and can that be incorporated in healthcare? Is it being incorporated? I mean, you probably know what’s being tested, what’s being done. So is it in healthcare, and what do you feel about it? Yes.
Dr. Ukti Vora 22:53
I’m going to start with, like, one word answer, yes. It has been incorporated in healthcare in different aspects, right? So there are when we talk about ai, ai is like a huge, huge concept, which could be as simple as using ChatGPT to write an email or creating an email template for your patient’s response, right? So it doesn’t have to be like aI just for diagnostic purposes. It could be using AI in your day to day office practice to just be more efficient. It could be like, how are you managing your data? Is AI supporting you to analyze the scripts and help you, you know, document things like, one of the biggest fatigue in healthcare is documenting the same thing again and again and again. Like, you know, there could be situations where you’re just, like, spending hours documenting after you know, you’ve seen a patient, if I can give you five minutes back from every patient, you probably will have an an hour, hour and a half saved. And that’s what AI can do. Like, you know, they can write scripts for you. They can kind of hear what you’re saying. They can take notes for you, and they can help you fill up those like, you know, patient charts you you definitely have to review it. It’s not can. It cannot survive or work on its own, but you can actually save time there. So when I think of AI as a technology and where it stands as of today, of course, it’s growing, and it would probably be changing every minute that we’re talking about it is, I look at it as an assistant, which we need, but we never had. So don’t think of it as something which is going to take your job away. If you are someone who is just doing like you know, nothing’s yet. Can replace your diagnostic skills or your knowledge or like your expertise? We are definitely not there yet. But can it help you with a second opinion in cases where you’re at friends? Yes. Can it help you, like, take away your work, which is like just documenting and spending hours working on charts? Yes. Can it help you with, like, pre screening at, say, maybe a primary care practitioners stage where they can, they can do a pre. Screening using AI and a retinal image, and help you prioritize the patient, if, say, for example, in diabetic retinopathy, because there’s so much done in that space already, if a patient, say, is more than moderate showing changes for diabetic retinopathy, then you know you want to prioritize that patient. If that patient is not showing any signs of diabetic retinopathy, yet you still would want to see them for an eye exam, but you can kind of manage your chair time and your schedule accordingly. So these are the small changes that can be incorporated today that can help you be more efficient, be more effective with your time and your knowledge, and spend time virtually matters, instead of, like, you know, doing all the chores which probably none of us enjoy. And the other big thing about AI, which I am really excited about, is the way it kind of helps make sense of the data, like, I know, we spend years of research and the with algorithms and with AI that can be done at probably like 10x or maybe even 50x speed, which otherwise we cannot do it like you know, humanly possible. So using these technology to make more sense, to be more effect effective in a treatment with patients I definitely see, like a lot of scope where AI can help you not just about eye care, but it can talk about health care. It can predict futures. It can predict like risk factors, and help you more on the preventative care versus being like more, you know, taking care of the patient after the diagnosis. So I think preventive care is a huge aspect which healthcare in general is moving towards, and AI is definitely going to be a critical part of it.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 26:47
And I think AI, like you said, you know, we see these posts from doctors and things where AI is scary and all of that, but I think it’s a mindset shift that needs to happen more positively where, like you said, you know, it’s cutting down our chair time. It’s helping us, you know, make those templates, or make those referral letters expediting certain patients, you know, flashes and floaters, if they have their detachment, it’s able to do those things for us. So it is helping us with chair time. You know, preventative health care, there’s so many benefits. So using AI positive. I think so far in other spaces, we’ve seen AI use sometimes negatively, and so that’s kind of just like telehealth. Some people think of it as negative, but I think it’s a mindset shift of how we’re using it in healthcare and in our professions. So, you know, I’m, I’m very thankful that I, you know, I met you and you helped switch my mindset, you know about that, but that is the future of healthcare, and I want, you know, Optometry and other healthcare providers to really move forward in that. Because for us in Canada, I think it will really speeds, you know, things up, you know, as well as you in in the US, but in Canada, I feel healthcare is not as accessible or as fast, and I think these are things that will make it more accessible to everyone and faster for everyone. Healthcare providers will also have a better lifestyle and cut down on chair time, such that they’re spending more time with their family, you know, or other things. So that’s huge,
Dr. Ukti Vora 28:18
and I think it’s very important when we talk about telehealth, AI, or technology in general, in healthcare, it is important that we as healthcare providers be actively involved in it, because the change is coming, and you cannot kind of stop the giants who have already taken time. So it’s up to you whether you want to be just someone who has no other choice but to kind of adopt it, or be actively involved and like, do it right. Because, as you said with AI, it’s extremely important to do it right. Otherwise it it definitely has negatives to it, which we are not, which we might not like it, but we might probably have to survive with it, if that’s the way it goes. So being part of like the technology being part of the policies, being part of the adoption. I think all of this matters so that we can implement technology in healthcare in the right manner, versus just okay, this is what is left with me. Let me just do it. Yeah, yeah. No,
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 29:17
that’s great. I mean, this was fun. Yeah? I mean, I always enjoy talking to you, and you know, it’s so nice to, you know, learn from a different perspective, right? Because I’m more clinically practicing and you’re more, you know, business future of eye care. So it’s so nice to see what we can learn from each other. So, you know, I hope people follow and listen to both of our podcasts, the nerdy optometrist and uncover your eyes. But this is great. Thanks, Ukti!
Dr. Ukti Vora 29:49
yeah, thank you so much for reaching out and putting this together. I’m sure, with both a busy schedule, it could have been a challenge, but I really enjoyed it. So thanks for this opportunity.
Dr. Meenal Agarwal 29:58
Thank you, listeners and viewers, for tuning in. If you want to catch more episodes of Uncover Your Eyes, make sure to Follow or Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and on YouTube to learn more about me, follow me on Instagram @Dr.MeenalAgarwal Until next time, keep those eyes uncovered!